nynaeve & Elayne's friendship

[caroline]

I never understood how RJ had Elayne and Aviendha become such good friends when the relationship between E & Nynaeve was developed much better. Those two characters have been through a lot together. Nynaeve deserves a good friend & Egwene's become too big for her britches. Nynaeve is one of the only characters to stay loyal to the Two Rivers people and to others who deserve her loyalty. Egwene's loyalty sways with the wind. Who know's who Rand is loyal to, but when he needed someone to help him with a mighty big task, it was Nyn he turned to. Nyn and Mat have been the most consistent characters yet poor Nyn doesn't even get a second thought from most of the characters except Lan. Even when she became Aes Sedai, she did not become a brainwashed AS only devoted to the White Tower.

[Shandy]

Hey Caroline, I totally agree with you on this.

I guess the Elayne/Aviendha thing was just a plot device so that they could both accept being Rand's lovers, and to explore the whole first-sister bond in more depth.

But the book at times still implies that Elayne and Nynaeve are the closest of friends:
- Elayne wants Nynaeve to be her Aes Sedai advisor when she is Queen, because she can be "trusted"
- When the 2 women were killed in the hut, Nyn joined the girl hug between Birgitte, Elayne and Avi - something like "Elayne took comfort in the closeness of her friends."

I think Nyn does deserve some appreciation from the other characters. I certainly hope Rand appreciates her more after what she did for him! And she does keep all the Two Rivers people in mind a lot - like when she wanted to go back for Mat when the Seanchan invaded. And they don't think about her at all. Poor Nyn... atleast she has Lan. She is the ONLY person he's concerned with!

[Liandra]

Actually, this has been bothering me too for sometime now. It's so unfair!
And yet, I think it's one more reason to like as well. She will always be loyal, even if other people aren't. Go Nynaeve! ;D

I think, though, there are some people who *are* her (real) friends:

Lan (do I need to explain?)

Rand (even though he may be all "I am the Dragon Reborn, I can't afford to care about anyone." in the last few books, I think deep inside he still cares *a lot* about all the people from Emond's Field. Even (or should I say: most especially) Nynaeve. After all, he *did* say she was the only one he trusted to link with - not Elayne, not Aviendha, not Egwene, no, only Nynaeve. And I think he knows, too, she's one of the few people that will be loyal to a friend, no matter what.)

And I think that (after all is said and done) she might even find that Moiraine (after she's brought back, of course) can be her friend. They had their differences, but that was mostly because of Lan and being Aes Sedai. When those problems are solved (Nyn is already AS and Moiraine did plan Lan to be Nynaeve's Warder, after all, unless I misread that chapter in tGH), I think they might very well like each other... or else I *really* feel for poor Lan.

[caroline]

The funny thing is that Moiraine was a lot like Nynaeve when she first entered the tower. Both were hot headed and stubborn. Many times people who are a lot alike clash. I think Moiraine was planning on passing the bond to Nyn once she was Aes Sedai. If Moir comes back, I think Rand would be her ideal warder because it has been her mission to find and help TDR and Rand trusts her but since Rand is linked to all those other women, I don't know how that would work.

With Nyn having become buddies with Siuan and Leane, I could see her becoming friends with Moir. What would be cool is that Moiraine gets rescued and has been stilled through falling through the doorway (or maybe Lanfear stilled her) and Nyn heals her.

[Liandra]

When I read New Spring, one of the first things that hit me (after: Wow, this is a great story!) was that Moiraine really was a lot like Nynaeve. I mean, if RJ had changed the names and would have called the two girls Nynaeve and Elayne, I would easily have believed it possible (though Elayne, I'm not so sure... she also likes to curse, though). ;D

I don't think Moiraine was stilled, though I'm aware that is widely believed. Why I don't believe it, I can't really say. Only think of this: when Rand and Moiraine entered the first doorframe ter'angreal, neither of them was stilled... Lanfear may have been stilled, yes, but who knows what has happened after the two women fell?

Anyway, if she was stilled, it'll be better if she's not healed by Nynaeve. After all, a stilled woman being healed by another woman will not regain her full strenght. That Ashaman might do the job, though. I dont recall his name; I believe he's one of the Warders of the Aes Sedai with Rand now.

But do you really think Moiraine would have given Lan to Nynaeve when she became Aes Sedai, even if she had not 'died'? She might, I guess...
After all, I don't think it would have been very pleasant for her, having a man *that* much in love (and not with herself) constantly in her head... Not to mention he might have gone to Nynaeve no matter what Moiraine wanted (he almost did).

[caroline]

doesn't Moiraine hint about passing the bond to 'a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood' in either the 2nd or 3rd book? I was assuming Moir was referring to our gal Nyn. Moiraine seemed amazed at how much Lan had fallen for her. Since M knows what Lan has been through and has basically lived a life of lonliness and 'death' she probably wanted him to find love, happiness, and companionship. A lot of ppl think Moir is cold, but I don't think so. I think it's just a veneer to protect herself.

I could also see Moiraine being friends with Nyn because neither seem 'brainwashed' by the White Tower. I can imagine Nyn getting along well with blues since they spend a lot of time out of the tower and aren't as involved in tower politics.

[Liandra]

Yup, she did hint, Moiraine... tGH in chapter 22 (or 20... 21... but at least around that number). And Lan (thought he) understood what she meant, until she started talking about Rand and the Amyrlin Seat. Then he got quite confused. But she definately meant Myrelle would pass the bond to Nynaeve.
And after that, Moiraine hinted some more (to the reader, that is, never to Lan) in tFoH (don't recall the chapter, but it's when they all leave from Rhuidean). Something about Lan denying the fact that he could ever have Nynaeve and her (Moiraine) having taking care of that at least. Also, about him wanting to change that, when it happened, fool man as he could be... ;D
I don't think she'd ever thought it would be Egwene sending Lan off to Nynaeve, though. (Myrelle thinking she was not ready for him...! )

[caroline]

Liandra said:

Myrelle thinking she was not ready for him...!

yeah what was up with miss high and mighty Myrelle thinking that Nynaeve wasn't ready to handle Lan?? Myrelle also made comment that many women have fallen at Lan's feet and he dismissed them all. Grrr! Little does she know how much our hero Lan loves Nyn. Nyn ain't just some little girl fawning over him. Even Lan referred to her as a lioness. ;D I really can't imagine these two characters with anyone else. Their love story is one of the most well-developed relationships in the whole series. I read somewhere that RJ originally toyed with the idea of having Nyn be a love interest for Rand. I can't imagine that.

One would think Myrelle would feel all that through the bond.

[Liandra]

Actually, It was Nisao who said Lan never loved anyone. Myrelle only blushed and said that that explained a lot, when Egwene told them Lan and Nynaeve were in love.

But I totally agree with you that they could never have ended up with anyone else. I once read a fanfic in which Nynaeve eventually choose to marry Logain and Lan stayed single all his life... I just couldn't believe it. They belong to each other.

Nynaeve was a love interest for Rand, but that was in the very early version of the Wheel of Time, when Tam and Rand were sort of one character. So Rand in that version was a (much) older man. Still, hard to imagine Rand and Nynaeve as a couple! He would be no match for her, I'm sure!

[caroline]

I guess I need to reread that chapter. What did Myrelle mean by 'that explains a lot'?

[Liandra]

Actually, she said: "That explains..."
I have no idea what she meant. My guess is that she did feel something through the bond, but couldn't figure out what it meant untill then.

Of-topic:
Don't you all, as I assume you're all WoT-fans, just love the advertisement for Goodkind's book that keeps popping up everytime this site is loaded (I keep getting it, constantly, anyway)?

[HammerOfGod]

What Myrelle meant when she said " that explains"

She is talking about why Moiraine had chosen to do something that is forbidden....Moiraine was saving Lan for Nynaeve...and told her to pass Lan on to Nynaeve as soon as she became Aes Sedai...

In answer to the post from Caroline:

A psychological interpertation of Egwene al"Vere

You have to go back to {The Eye of the World}
Egwene was never in {Love} with Rand al'Thor....she chose what would be the best catch in the Two Rivers and was in the right age range...there were only two other candidates...Perrin and Mat....but Egwene felt that Rand was the better match...

Almost from the beginning you can see a disagreement of character between Egwene and Rand...This really begins to sharpen when she finds out that she can channel... Rand is upset because she is not acting like a good Two Rivers girl should act {get married, get pregnant, cook the meals}

Egwene is an agressive modern woman; she wants to find her own niche, she wants to gain all the power a strong woman who can channel can have.... This conflicts with what Rand thinks a woman should be...

This does not mean that they do not care for each other and are not loyal to each other...It just means that Egwene wants to control her own life and doesn't want any woman or man to tell her what to do...this is the reason in {The Dragon Reborn} she treats Nynaeve so badly... I really thought she was so ungrateful in that book... yet even there she is very brave and and loyal to her companions....

Egwene is Jordan's greatest creation, because she is so human...She is a good girl, she is a bad girl, she is a frightened girl and a brave girl...she does mean things to Nynaeve and then makes her Aes Sedai....she falls in love and acts like a giddy girl...she becomes hard as nails with her enemies... yet she shows compassion to the fallen...

[Shikoba]

The other characters need Nynaeve often --most of them just don't realize it. I'm glad Nyn and Elayne aren't better friends, as I happen to think Elayne is evil. I'd like to see Nyn have a good friend, but the only one she needs is Lan...

[Liandra]

caroline said:

doesn't Moiraine hint about passing the bond to 'a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood' in either the 2nd or 3rd book?

I am rereading the series (as I think I have said before - it's going slow, I'm only on The Shadow Rising now... but hey! that only means I do have a life! Wow! ;D ) and I found out there's another passage about the passing of the bond to Nynaeve... In The Shadow Rising, when Rand has all the nobles gathered in the Stone of Tear and he puts Callandor 'back': Rand makes all of them (including Moiraine and Egwene) wait for him. The scene is from Moiraine's point of view and she is thinking about Lan, because he is not there and she doesn't know where he is (actually, he went to persuade Juilin Sandar to go with Nynaeve and Elayne, but that isn't the point here). And there it is, the answer to the question (if it ever was a question)! She thinks (it's not a quote, but close enough) that Nynaeve will have Lan after her own (Moiraine's) death.
So... mystery solved. Moiraine meant Nynaeve to have Lan, but only after her own death.

[HammerOfGod]

The Slip of a Girl happened in the Great Hunt...When Moiraine was in the home of Adaleas and Vandene...